All Things 🇺🇸 Politics: SCOTUS Officially Overturns Roe Vs Wade - Abortion Now Illegal

[MANiCURE1295 Pronounshe/him]

2 hours ago, blue said:

I don't personally find this an urgent issue since trans athletes are few and far between. That said, I understand why athletes themselves want solutions and I understand why it's a lightening rod for debate. Frankly, there are no good solutions. There aren't enough trans athletes at the local level to warrant trans leagues (but I do think trans kids/students would benefit from trans leagues for sure). A handicap system would be a better alternative but biological sex is a spectrum too. Blanket invasive gender/sex tests would reveal lots of very good cis athletes are intersex, rock high/low T levels, etc and I just don't see the upside of otherizing anyone and everyone who doesn't fit in our neat little boxes. 

Imagine thinking kicking kids out of sports while we have child poverty and a laughable federal minimum wage is a “urgent issue”  nothing about this issue is urgent, it’s solely used as a talking point for Republicans...they don’t f-ing care about women at all, if they did they wouldn’t be trying to rip away their choice of what to do with their bodies....

I really don’t understand the obsession with wanting to discriminate  I hate people 

[NotDoctor PronounsHe/they]

11 hours ago, Starboy said:

Well it’s really about both trans girls and boys playing in leagues where they’re either at an unfair advantage or disadvantage. It makes sense to exclude them from participating in sports where there are biological boys and girls playing. It’s not fair for any party. Although many, including myself, view trans girls playing alongside biological girls as a more urgent issue that should be addressed because it creates an environment where biological girls are at a disadvantage.

https://www.wired.com/story/the-glorious-victories-of-trans-athletes-are-shaking-up-sports/amp

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Now what isn’t being talked about enough in the debates around this issue is the fact that we need to create leagues where only trans women and trans men can compete, therefore creating a level playing field for all athletes while still giving them a chance to play sports. Or like the Wired article suggests, “to create a handicap system that uses an algorithm to account for physiological parameters such as testosterone, hemoglobin levels, height, and endurance capacity, as well as social factors like gender identity and socioeconomic status.”

I'm not here to debate with you so don't take this as an invitation, but this sort of casual transphobia is gross and has no place here.  It's not urgent or an emergency to exclude trans athletes full stop.

Edited March 17, 2021 by NotDoctor

[Joannesrats PronounsHe/Him]

10 hours ago, Starboy said:

It makes sense to exclude them from participating

Stop being transphobic. 

[blankpaper Pronounsshe/her]

Specific leagues for trans athletes may be more important at an adult or professional level, but these are kids. There aren’t enough trans kids in any given school to do that, so all that would accomplish is completely excluding them, ostracizing them, and making them feel more different than they already do. They’re KIDS, and just want to play sports with their friends. Transphobia’s gross 

[blankpaper Pronounsshe/her]

“Let’s have civil policy discussions about excluding trans kids” 

[NotDoctor PronounsHe/they]

15 minutes ago, Starboy said:

Yikes this is why we can’t have civil policy discussions and disagreements. Calling me transphobic is just an easy way to avoid talking about the issue at hand. This type of response was to be expected though 

No it's because you're perpetuating TERF talking points and pretending to be civil.  It's not complicated.

Do not ever come into trans-inclusive space and expect to be able to peddle that bullshit in nice tones and be left alone.  You're being transphobic, end of discussion.  We don't have to respect your opinions just because you aren't being vulgar or loud about it.

[Joannesrats PronounsHe/Him]

24 minutes ago, Starboy said:

Yikes this is why we can’t have civil policy discussions and disagreements. Calling me transphobic is just an easy way to avoid talking about the issue at hand. This type of response was to be expected though 

I'm going to call someone that is actively defending the exclusion of trans individuals transphobic. Because it's transphobic. If I recall, it's been decently civil thus far. No name calling has taken place. A calm exchange of points. However, if multiple people call you transphobic, that isn't an attack on you. That's calling you out on some behavior that you're exhibiting that could be harmful to trans people. An appropriate response is to listen and adjust your actions and viewpoints, not to become defensive. Try to grow and learn and listen instead of playing the victim when people call you out on transphobic ideologies. 

[MANiCURE1295 Pronounshe/him]

Anyways.......

I’m ready for this....once voting rights gets blocked sh!t gonna get wild. Come on Manchin, do you support voting rights or the filibuster?

[Joannesrats PronounsHe/Him]

47 minutes ago, Starboy said:

And calling me transphobic is definitely name-calling and being uncivil. You don’t resort to those kinds of things without first trying to understand where that person is coming from.

I will again repeat that what I’m advocating for is NOT transphobic.

Calling someone's behaviors what they are isn't uncivil or name-calling. I didn't call you an idiot. If multiple people, including a trans individual, are calling your words and actions transphobic....they're transphobic. Take a step back for a second and don't let your damn ego get in the way. You're giving very much "separate but equal."

[blankpaper Pronounsshe/her]

9 minutes ago, Starboy said:

Keeping trans girls from playing with biological girls is like having a boys league and a girls league.

Trans girls aren’t boys

Plus we’re talking about kids here, if they’re pre-puberty or on hormone blockers (I’m not sure what they’re actually called?) to prevent puberty, then testosterone levels or whatever argument people use to ostracize trans kids and exclude them from sports isn’t valid

But maybe we should have leagues for every biological difference to make things more fair? A league for tall people, a league for short people, a league for people with longer limbs, a league for people who are more muscular, etc.

This is just such a ridiculous argument for a kids league. Most want to have fun playing with their friends, but maybe the ones that are actually super competitive and want to win at all costs should work harder instead of having the people who are at a “biological advantage” or whatever excluded

[admin Pronounshe/him]

Going through all of this now, will post an update in a bit.

[admin Pronounshe/him]

The issue at hand is how to treat trans kids in school with regards to sports. These are not professionals and I don't think it honestly is worth considering anything accept allowing all kids to equally participate. Kids should be allowed to play the sports they want as themselves. If those sports are separated by gender, then so too, should they be allowed to play according to their gender identity.

The second discussion, about the fairness of trans people playing sports is complicated, but often simplified by people trying to exclude trans folk. They focus on specific incidents of a trans athlete 'overperfomlng' or very small studies which focus on some very particular criteria which illuminates trans advantage. 

When we think about the great athletes of any given sport we accept, almost without hesitation, that they are the best because they've earned it. But how exactly did they earn it? Let's talk through this because I think it helps make this debate much clearer.

How do athletes become great athletes? Here are two key ways:

• Training. How did they manage to train, dedicate so much time to training, who helped them and so on? Often, these answers start young and come with economic assistance and privilege. Do we devalue the athlete who had rich parents who paid for them to have the best trainers and resources growing up compared to the poor athlete who just played when they could growing up? We don't, we just accept that they're both now on 'equal footing' and allow them to play as such.
• Skill. What develops skill? Practice without question. But, depending on the sport, many other specific physical attributes. People who excel at running might have a physiology which produces 15% more of a specific chemical or muscle which allows them to run faster. A swimmer might have a bone structure which allows them to move just a bit faster in water. These are advantages individuals are born with regardless of gender. They are unique and they are natural. Among the cisgendered, if anything, they are praised.

How do we separate athletics? Do we split out basketball leagues for certain heights, no. Do we separate swimmers based on their bone structure, no. Do we test the DNA of each individual athlete to evaluate their advantages, no. We have chosen to frequently separate kids by gender as some grand equalizer. It is not, people are wholly and completely unique and come with their own set of circumstances and biology which will help or hamper them at any particular sport. We've never taken the time to break that down in the name of 'fairness' before and the desire to do so now is born out of transphobic fear. I'm not saying our current sports systems are perfect, they're not - but they have separated people, especially kids, by gender and NOT by their natural skills or privilege. So there is absolutely no reason to do so now.

Here are some links that might be very helpful: 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trans-girls-belong-on-girls-sports-teams/

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

One quote from the SA article that is really important:

Quote

It’s worth noting that this isn’t the first time people have tried to discredit the success of athletes from marginalized minorities based on half-baked claims of “science.” There is a long history of similarly painting Black athletes as “genetically superior” in an attempt to downplay the effects of their hard work and training.

The third topic is how we approach these subjects and how we treat people who have differing views and when we make space to try to educate people who might be spouting transphobic talking points without understanding that they are doing that.

 @Starboy - I understand your argument and why you are concerned for 'fairness' in sports. However, as I hope my message and links above illustrate: 'fairness' has never been the concern of most sports, never mind in schools. Excluding trans kids, black kids or anyone else is built on a fear of cis (mostly white) people wanting to maintain their power. I hope that taking in what everyone has posted, what I've linked and the opinions of trans people can help guide you to a better understanding of the issue. if you have an issue with 'natural advantage' and 'fairness' in sports, that has nothing to do with trans people. Sports can never be fully equal, because people are all unique. Don't forget that one person with some minor physical advantage can still easily lose for a million other reasons, most of which have nothing to do with physical prowess.

I think it's good that we can have discussions like this here and try to educate, but I do think there is a limit. If everyone is telling you that you're transphobic (or something similar) and you've already (respectfully) shared your opinion, it's time to take a seat and listen. Try to understand the reasons you're being seen this way and if you still can't have your mind changed, realize that you're hurting others even if you disagree.  Don't continue to argue and repeat your claims, all they do is harm. This site will protect and defend trans people, so please do not continue to perpetuate the exclusion of trans people from any part of society.

[NotDoctor PronounsHe/they]

6 hours ago, MANiCURE1295 said:

Anyways.......

I’m ready for this....once voting rights gets blocked sh!t gonna get wild. Come on Manchin, do you support voting rights or the filibuster?

Part of me worries about this.  Say they are able to get it through with filibuster changes.... Isn't SCOTUS pretty much guaranteed to f- with the legislation at this point? 

[admin Pronounshe/him]

24 minutes ago, NotDoctor said:

Part of me worries about this.  Say they are able to get it through with filibuster changes.... Isn't SCOTUS pretty much guaranteed to f- with the legislation at this point? 

Do you mean filibuster legislation or the subsequent ones dems would pass after that. 

They would have no leg to stand on to stop changes to the full buster, but they’ll surely get involved in legislation, but they can’t shut it all down, it’s not their place, and they know it - even as right leaning as they are. 

We need to kill it. 

[NotDoctor PronounsHe/they]

39 minutes ago, admin said:

Do you mean filibuster legislation or the subsequent ones dems would pass after that. 

They would have no leg to stand on to stop changes to the full buster, but they’ll surely get involved in legislation, but they can’t shut it all down, it’s not their place, and they know it - even as right leaning as they are. 

We need to kill it. 

I meant the latter, sorry if it was worded poorly 😅

I think we need to wait until the next ACA decision is passed down to see the damage SCOTUS is willing to do, and I truly don't think anything is off the table.  Alito/Thomas/ACB are a solid block willing to do as much damage as possible (and to a lesser extent Kavanaugh), Robert's has a vested interest in voting to uphold the status quo/voting occasionally with liberal justices because he seems to care about his legacy, and that leaves Gorsuch as the swing vote? No ma'am. That's bad news 

I'm not saying we shouldn't try but it's hard not to wonder if it's futile sometimes 

Edited March 18, 2021 by NotDoctor

[admin Pronounshe/him]

13 minutes ago, NotDoctor said:

I meant the latter, sorry if it was worded poorly 😅

I think we need to wait until the next ACA decision is passed down to see the damage SCOTUS is willing to do, and I truly don't think anything is off the table.  Alito/Thomas/ACB are a solid block willing to do as much damage as possible (and to a lesser extent Kavanaugh), Robert's has a vested interest in voting to uphold the status quo/voting occasionally with liberal justices because he seems to care about his legacy, and that leaves Gorsuch as the swing vote? No ma'am. That's bad news 

I'm not saying we shouldn't try but it's hard not to wonder if it's futile sometimes 

Yeah. There’s a strong sense of futile-ness, but since nothing is happening now - I see no reason not to proceed and have a chance to get things to happen. Let’s go. 

[MANiCURE1295 Pronounshe/him]

Republicans have been moaning about kids at the border meanwhile they spent the last 50+ days trying their hardest to delay confirmation of Biden’s pick to head HSS 

took a while but we finally got here 

plus here is our daily filibuster update:

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by MANiCURE1295

[MANiCURE1295 Pronounshe/him]

Should we add this to the list of bills going to the Senate Graveyard?  I hope not, we really need to do some sort of immigration bill/bills passed soon

[MANiCURE1295 Pronounshe/him]

+2 Democratic senators looking like they’re supporting some form of either filibuster reform/abolishment @admin

[MANiCURE1295 Pronounshe/him]

Democratic Senator Chris Murphy recently visited the southern border on a bipartisan trip..some of his comments above....shame to see what the Republicans have tried to turn this border situation into, its literally just a game to them. They don’t actually care about the kids they’re just using the shitty situation Biden was handed and turning it into a political ploy literally only caring about whether or not it’s called a “crisis” or not......THESE ARE KIDS FOR GODSAKE IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT ITS CALLED. Trump destroyed the asylum system and now we’re seeing those consequences....

@Starboy @admin @Twitter @NotDoctor @blankpaper @blue @WildAmerican @Joannesrats @Joesuda @NYNJ Nights (apologize for the tag if you don’t care, just tagged some people who have added discussion in the past)

Anyone have any thoughts? Figured I would start up a Saturday morning Immigration discussion  especially after seeing these tweets from one of my fave senators